By Zé Beto Maciel – Special for H2FOZ
The situation of public education in Brazil, according to Professor Silvana Souza, PhD in Education from Unioeste. “We emerged from a pandemic without a national plan for pedagogical recovery, which would have to be a cycle of several years,” she said in this exclusive interview with H2FOZ.
“The influence of big bankers and businessmen on educational policy, who want to take advantage of education money by selling products and services”, he analyzes when answering questions that range from civic-military schools, to educator Paulo Freire, secondary education, comprehensive education, school dropout rates in higher education and the proposal for a 'school without a party'.
Silvana Souza is neither evasive nor generic about controversial topics. “Unfortunately, more than half of teachers in Brazil are trained in distance learning courses and private institutions, which generally restrict critical debate on certain aspects of education, including the commercialization of education.”
“Society needs to offer opportunities, a sense of improvement in life through schooling, so that the generation of young people in each historical moment feels motivated to study,” he said about the crisis in secondary education.
“Paulo Freire is generally attacked by people who have not read a single line of what he wrote, by people who do not even know how to write in reasonable Portuguese,” he reiterates about the internationally renowned Brazilian educator, who is generally attacked on social media.
Read the full interview below.
What is the panorama of public education in Brazil today?
The situation is serious. To list the main ones:
We emerged from a pandemic without a national plan for pedagogical recovery, which would have to be a cycle lasting several years. Without it, we have middle and upper class children who had private tutors at home and poor children who did not even have equipment to follow classes. So, they took printed activities from school and did them at home, generally without adequate help. The pandemic increased educational inequality;
With a curriculum that was developed as best it could, with in-person classes interrupted and then online classes, the large-scale assessment system, better known as Ideb, followed its schedule as if nothing had happened, demonstrating a system that focuses on formal assessment and not on learning;
Bolsonarism has expanded an anti-scientific understanding and defense of life. This has led to less and less science in schools and more and more behavioral and/or customary guidelines. Associated with and articulated with this, there has also been an incentive to expand the militarization of schools and in society the defense of the expansion of the use of weapons, of intolerance towards everything that is different from the hetero, masculine, white and allegedly religious standard. Another behavioral change. It is no wonder that we are seeing a progressive increase in violent attacks in schools;
The influence of big bankers and businessmen on educational policy, who want to grab money from education by selling products and services, but mainly, influence the school curriculum, to form the next generations with thoughts that suit them, such as the naturalization of capitalism as the only acceptable form of social organization, entrepreneurial behavior that disguises the employment crisis, etc.;
Not to mention the funding problems, since municipalities, which are responsible for providing early childhood education and the first stage of elementary school, have increasingly had greater financial responsibilities without the corresponding increase in revenue. The Union has legislated for this increase without the corresponding transfer of resources.
With the reduction in births in the country, is it possible to advance in early childhood education and full-time schooling?
There is no public policy that can develop well in terms of quality, with a constant increase in demand. The stabilization of the population forces us to shift the focus from access, that is, increasing the supply of places, to retention, that is, improving the service of the demand already met. So, yes, Brazil's current path is to move from a system in which children and adolescents take turns in school, with some leaving in the morning and others entering in the afternoon and evening, to a more generous, horizontal and inclusive model. It is important to emphasize that there is no point in simply increasing the time that young people spend in a precarious school. This would only increase boredom and the model of school as a dumping ground for children. Full-time school There must be an adequate cafeteria, a place to rest after the meal until the next activities begin, bathrooms with facilities for showering and lockers as it will be necessary to change clothes for different activities. Otherwise, what we will have will be just Full-time school.
In addition to being poorly paid, are teachers in the country still poorly prepared for the technological universe that is increasingly common among children and young people?
Unfortunately, more than half of Brazil's teachers graduate from distance learning courses and private institutions, which generally restrict critical debate on certain aspects of education, including the commercialization of education. And it cannot be denied that there are also difficulties in public universities, of course. But what I want to emphasize is that there is no continuing education that can solve the problem if initial training is poor. Therefore, without taking care of adequate initial training, we will be forever "mopping up water" on this issue.
“Without taking care of adequate initial training (of teachers), we will be “wasting our time” on this issue forever.”
Paulo Freire is still being harshly attacked by conservative politicians and the right. Much is said about the educator but little is known about his methods. Is education focused on the reality of students and the communities where they live still very present in what is still called 'liberating education'?
Paulo Freire is generally attacked by people who have not read a single line of what he wrote, by people who do not even know how to write in reasonable Portuguese. In other words, a liberating education was not given to this huge contingent of Brazilians. Paulo Freire is known worldwide. The Brazilian population, in general, should be proud that he is ours. However, ignorance still prevails because it is a class hatred developed by the elite so that the poor think like them, and what is more, defend their interests, against their own interests, without realizing that they are doing so.
“Legally, the Escola Sem Partido project was a failure. It was rejected more than approved in the different legislative houses across the country”
Over the past four years, an attempt was made in Paraná to approve the ill-fated 'school without party affiliation' project, but it was rejected by the deputies. Today, with a more conservative profile in the legislative houses, how can we confront this nonsense, which is, to say the least, conservative?
Legally, the Escola Sem Partido project was a failure. It was rejected more than approved in the various legislative houses throughout the country, because according to current legislation, it is not up to municipalities and states to legislate on curricular matters in that way. Therefore, this project was considered illegal in many places. However, this project was politically successful because, just by being debated, it empowered a mass of people who now enter schools screaming, as parents or guardians of students, saying that they do not accept teachers talking about gender, having sex education classes, dealing with social policy, and even the solar system, Darwinism, etc. Therefore, many teachers now “shrink” when they have to address these issues. Or they simply do not address them at all, so as not to have to wear themselves out with confrontations of this type.
Civic-military schools were implemented in the states as the best alternative for teaching and learning. It is clear that this is a short-sighted and twisted attempt to militarize schools as a method of education and everything that is clear in it, but how can we convince communities otherwise?
That's not quite right. They were ALLEGEDLY implemented as a better alternative. But who claims that? The openly conservative right-wing governments. Better or worse are criteria of values. Therefore, they do not mean the same thing to different people. What is better for one person or group of people may be considered worse for another. Considering the class struggle, then, we know that there are antagonistic interests between the classes. Now, in fact, communities often like the model because they want the best for their children and think that police officers would help curb "indiscipline". And people also get confused and the police reinforce this, which is a subservient person and an educated person.
The subservient person is the one who is obedient under any circumstances. He borders on the imbecile, since he has been led not to question even an inhumane, degrading or illegal order. The educated person is cultured and critical. Therefore, he will never be blindly obedient. But, of course, authoritarian people prefer quiet, obedient young people. A shame, because human creativity, initiative, needs freedom of thought to develop fully…
In fact, this acceptance of militarized schools as a good thing is a common sense that has developed in society over years, decades, centuries, and it is really difficult to change, because there is money from the public sector involved, the strength of the institutions, etc. And remember, they are all laymen in education. And unfortunately, those who are experts in the subject are rarely heard. But we, education scientists, are also tireless, and we are there trying to counter all of this, from the perspective of pedagogy. This interview is one of these opportunities…
These attacks on schools once again raise the issue of school safety. I consider this to be a deeper tragedy that affects young people today and the lack of quality information. How can we address this?
Practically all, if not all, cases of extremely violent attacks in schools occur at the initiative of young people who have been isolated for a long time, developing a hatred motivated by an aggression suffered or which, in fact, was not an aggression.
But this is growing in the minds of these young people, as an aggression, and the stimulus to violent thinking has increased in recent years. These young people are white males, and they carry out attacks in lower-middle and middle-middle class schools, which are linked to white supremacist, fascist, etc. internet groups. This does not mean that attacks cannot be initiated by young women or people who are not white. But the cases so far have this profile. I am talking about real and concrete statistics. Oh, and it is clear that none of them were killed by the police during their arrest.
I understand that the only way to “defuse” this bomb, which, if left as it is, tends to grow, is with permanent educational activities in ALL schools, an activity that I would call “Democratic Coexistence”. These would be discussion groups with groups of students, led by teachers, psychologists or social workers, in which everyone would end up speaking and thus we would break the isolation of this potential aggressor, who would gradually feel integrated and welcomed, thus breaking the continuity of the development of mistaken thoughts. Policing in schools will not solve the problem because they plan these attacks for years and execute their plans in seconds inside the school. If the police officer is in another block, that is already enough time for the young person to carry out the attack. He will wait for the best moment to attack, because he planned it. In addition, policing is too expensive and the police themselves know that they do not have the manpower for all this.
In addition to all this, we know that having the police in schools is a bad sign. I always say that either everyone will be safe or no one will be. There is no point in protecting only schools because the attacks would go elsewhere. We need to combat fascism, break the cycle of isolation of young people and monitor, restrain and punish, with the full force of the law, those responsible for groups and platforms that worship extreme violence. That is, in fact, the exclusive role of the police. That is why the approval of the Law that regulates the Internet is so important at this time.
“It is necessary to combat fascism, break the cycle of isolation of young people and monitor, restrain and punish, with the full force of the law, those responsible for groups and platforms where extreme violence is worshipped”
After advancing in higher education, large groups are now looking at the dilapidated secondary education. How can this be reversed? How can secondary education be improved and transformed? How can young people be encouraged to study and prepare for new challenges in higher education?
For this you need at least two things.
- Listen to the movement of education researchers, who know very well how to do this, based on a humanistic and scientific curriculum. However, note that education in Brazil is almost never managed by specialists in basic education. During the dictatorship, the majority of the Ministers of Education were doctors or military personnel. Unfortunately, during the democratization, this situation changed to a sequence of economists. It is clear, therefore, that education only becomes a public policy when it becomes an economic policy. Educational solutions have generally proven to be primarily economic solutions and decisions. This makes it difficult to get it right, pedagogically speaking…
- Society needs to offer opportunities and a sense of improvement in life through schooling, so that the generation of young people in each historical moment feels motivated to study. Otherwise, from a pragmatic perspective, which is conventional and predominant in market society, school becomes practically useless. And there is nothing worse than a generation without expectations. The current generation of young people finds itself in this situation, especially the poorest, because the middle and upper classes are able to support the professional development of their heirs. In other words, the crisis of jobs and job opportunities directly affects the school environment, because it is impossible to expect people to remain disciplined in school for years, resignedly, without thinking about the relationship between their studies and their future lives.
“The crisis of jobs and job opportunities directly affects the school environment, as it is impossible to expect people to remain disciplined in school for years”
How do you evaluate the proposal for full-time education, language teaching and opening schools to the community with cultural, sporting and leisure events?
It is wonderful, perfect and totally appropriate, pedagogically speaking, but also socially speaking, politically speaking and humanistically speaking.
I did the math and Foz do Iguaçu has 47 public higher education courses and close to 10 thousand students (including private education), but it faces enrollment suspension and school dropouts. How can we deal with this situation? Is increasing the values of the student grant (permanence grant) the best alternative?
Yes, dropout rates across the country have increased since the pandemic and are linked to several factors.
1. The lack of expectations regarding studies, which I mentioned earlier. If the job available to this generation ends up being a ride-hailing driver, it is logical that they think that they do not need a higher education degree for that.
2. Going to school or university, even if public, means expenses and after the pandemic the economic crisis has increased in many working-class households.
3. Emotional suffering resulting from the pandemic, the loss of close relatives, the financial crisis, etc. And…
4. A large part of the population has become accustomed to doing activities online, from home. This has favored the expansion of the supply of online courses, and the option for them, which are, obviously, cheaper. There are courses for 100 reais per month. And the person can do the activities at any time, at home and without travel expenses. What is not taken into account is that in-person activities, in addition to being socially positive, are irreplaceable in the basic education process, because doubts can be cleared up and new doubts can arise, new debates, ideas, support, opportunities, new content are instigated. In short, the advantages are endless and the education is much better. However, what is spread is that education depends only on the student. This is a lie: good education depends half on the student and half on the teacher and the structure for learning.
Ten thousand students in Foz, I believe, are only in face-to-face courses. But it is likely that there are at least twice that many in free courses, that is, Distance Education (EaD) or online, called synchronous, because they are in real time. That is the problem: education as a business again. Distance education is very profitable.
You are in favor of free travel for students. What is the impact and importance of this measure? Could it be extended to include free travel for teachers, lunch ladies, secretaries and school staff?
I fought hard for free public transportation in Foz do Iguaçu and I am proud of that. It is a historic struggle. The impact of the Free Pass is precisely to be one of the actions that encourages the current generation of young people to resume their studies. The mayor has already announced, and I agree, that free transportation should be available to the entire population, regardless of age, circumstance, etc.
In addition to being an environmentally correct measure, because it discourages the individual use of cars and encourages public transport, and is socially fair, contrary to what the most narrow-minded and backward part of the business sector thinks, the free pass also favors capitalist businesses, because it encourages people to leave their homes and also leaves more money for consumption.
Zé Beto Maciel is a poet and journalist.
